Hello Philosophy Society!
Discussion 1: About
Our first discussion was in regards to what the group was about. We had a new member at our in person meetings and the other members offered their perspectives on why the meeting was valuable. The members discussed how the group was very spiritual and how it was conversation that goes beyond mundane subjects usually found in public.
Exercise: Mindfulness Meditation
We started our first exercise by doing some meditation and mindfulness breathing exercises. The task was to do ten full breaths with our attention on our breath. During this exercise we want to be aware of the present moment but not fixate our attention on any specific stimulus. The main focus of attention is the breath where we inhale to full capacity then exhale completely. This was done in a distracting environment but that gave the opportunity to train being one with oneself among may chaotic noises and social interactions.
Our body and mind are always part of every experience. We can resort back to that no matter how chaotic our external environment is. Even in our last moments we most likely have this control over our breath. Learning the breathing exercise as a baseline for our state of mind is a great way to tell when we deviate from it in stressful moments. We know then to take a moment to ourselves and calm down so that we can respond to the situation appropriately.
If breathing is difficult and attending to it causes anxiety, in the situation where someone is asthmatic, one can set a timer and simply allow breathing to be natural without any controlled effort. Allow yourself to be mindful, aware, of what is going on in your environment but do not become attached to any specific part of it. Let your mind go back to a detached perspective of the environment for the duration of the timer.
Philosophy Academy: Feeling Good Chapter 2
Notable sections: (These quotes are being used for educational purposes and yield no monetary gains)
Chapter 2
In chapter 2 there is the Burns Depression checklist where you are able to tick off 25 different items within a minute or so and get a sense of your depression levels. (p 20-21) Using this checklist gives an objective measure to how one is feeling that can be done very quickly.
23 - …the crucial decision to try to help yourself is the key that will allow you to feel better as soon as possible, regardless of how severe your mood disturbance might seem to be.
25 - …your conviction that you are hopeless is the reason to seek treatment, not suicide…depressed individuals believe they are hopeless…destructive delusion is merely a sympotm of the illness, not a fact. Your feeling that you are hopeless is powerful evidence that you are actually not!
Burns identifies certain symptoms that are not relevant to the book like physical, psychotic and manic symptoms. These issues need to be responded to by a medical physician, antipsychotic medication or lithium.
Feeling good is a book to help with issues of depression, motivation, procrastination, anger, and other mood related issues.
Burns, David. Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy. Harper Publishing. New York, 1999.
Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy Mass Market Paperback – Dec 30 2008
Discussion 2: Veganism
We discussed the principles behind a version of the vegan perspective. One of our members was vegan and was upset that humans engage in speciesism, the belief that humans have more value than other species on the planet.
An argument for veganism is that because we are sophisticated in our awareness and intelligence of the suffering of other sentient beings, we can choose to develop our diet in such a way that we do not have to kill other animals to feed ourselves. We essentially do not have the right to kill, take the fur or milk from other animals simply because we have had a history of doing so. They are beings whose existence is independent in their own right and not relative to us using them for our own self-interest.
The intellectual justification for not using animals for their meat, fur or other physical parts can be understood from a sentience and existential perspective. The problem lies in the fact that intellectually understanding why to not eat meat or use animals as a means to an end is not the difficult part. The difficult part lies in the fact that people have developed a lifestyle of using animals for their own personal growth.
People have developed an association with meat as a means to meet their nutritional needs for hundreds and thousands of years. Even if we contest this fact, a person learning to meet their dietary needs from animals since they were a child makes it a very difficult transition. Cultures are based on using animals for personal growth and the development of civilization.
Looking at meat eating in the same frame as an addiction can yield a better result than becoming frustrated and angry with people who are not vegan. We can intellectually agree that eating meat is unethical like understanding that smoking cigarettes causes cancer. The issue is how the person deals with stress or meets their nutritional needs. Demonstrating to meat eaters by teaching them how to cook equivalent dietary meals could be a much more effective method than attempting to coerce them into changing their habits through anger or aggression.
Whatsapp Chat
WaC 1: Gender in Schools
Rajib: OTTAWA TEACHER: 'There is no such thing as girls and boys' | Toronto Sun
I do totally agree if anyone feels to be girl or boy or nothing that's up to an individual's feeling but my point is why you force kids or brainwash them that there is no such thing as boy or girl. That's dangerous. Now she is saying i don't wanna be mommy i wanna hv dog..there is nothing wrong having animals but we shouldn't brainwash kids like this..kids are spiritually innocent whatever u feed them they will take..um not against LGBTQ but we gotta watch out..are this group trying to dominate or making and technically brainwashing kids to become like that..??
Reggie: Here's the challenge as I see it: On one hand, we are trying to educate children to be more open-minded about others. On the other hand, as children, they are also trying to learn about themselves. With the non-nuclear family, it was pretty straightforward. Same with religion vs secularism or ethnicity. With 2SLGBTQ+ though, it's quite different because young people discover their sexuality during adolescence.
It is further complicated as children need to be taught about sexuality at a young age so that they understand what inappropriate touching is, and that they should tell an adult if they are being sexually abused.
The other angle to look at it...Teaching in the classroom setting is difficult because it relies on a utilitarian approach (ie. best learning outcomes for the greatest number of children) when in fact there are different learning styles and compatibilities with particular children
With the three Rs (reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic), these are mostly objective, impersonal topics. Social sciences start getting closer, but are largely the study of groups. Human biology is important, but it still garners giggles in class. When it comes to human sexuality though, to what extent should that be a subject taught/learned en masse?
I mean, we don't have courses on dating or using social media (that I know of lol). In other words, how do you acknowledge everyone's individuality through a system that is largely standardized? My opinion = based on this Toronto Sun article, we should be teaching kids why bullying is wrong, and that it should be punished.
Did the teacher go too far? Arguably, the first bullet point would have been enough. Coupled with explaining that bullying is wrong.
To me, a more effective way of teaching this stuff would be to explain to children our rights as Canadians, and why violence (harassment, assault, etc) are wrong.
Rajib: Divorce appears to have a bigger impact on children's educational attainment than parental death
There are two types of freedom 1.freedom from and 2.freedom to. So if you are free from want then you are free to live. As long as you have all you want. When you become free of the wants then you are really free to live. If we are slave ourselves we r never free.
Ignorance are two types: simple ignorant and compounded ignorance
Simple ignorant is a person is ignorant and he knows.
Compounded ignorance is when a person is ignorant but he doesn't know. And that dangerous and harms the society.
The problem with delusion is that nobody who is deluded sees their delusions. Arrogant people are often completely oblivious to their ignorance. They don't realize that they are being arrogant but they see themselves as better than you and that is where the arrogance comes from and to see themselves as better than you is a delusional state. Because in reality they don't know whether they're better than you. They might be but they don't know
Reggie: If you were a slave, but didn't want to be free, would you be free? There would've been a time when slaves were seen as delusional for wanting their freedom.
Achilles: Yah, i firmly believe the teacher is not educated but misinformation and abusing their power as an educator to propagate false information about gender and biological sex. Males and females exist as part of every animal species relative to their DNA. This is a fact. Gender is one's identification with their sex as male or female. It would be delusional to think that you are male when born female. Even with sexual reassignment surgery, you are a female who underwent surgical procedures to appear male. Our sex is ingrained in our DNA. Its important to respect someone's healthy sexual orientation, like being gay, but that's different than reinforcing a false narrative that boys and girls don't exist.
Yes, this person is not a teacher. They are attempting to indoctrinate children into a false narrative and enabling abuse to reinforce that narrative. Yah, not all mental Health issues are caused by social conditions but our ability to restructure how our society meets social needs is important.
Bipolar disorder is a good example of a highly genetic influenced disorder that's really needs medication to stabilize the person. In states of mania, lithium is the only means we really know about that can help. Social and economic factors can trigger stress, depression and anxiety but disorders like PTSD are created from near death experiences.
Through a socio- cultural group like ours, we can help people get through things like trauma by listening and helping to construct an empowering narrative. But bipolar disorder, we need some serious meditation if we're not going with lithium. And even then, i'm not sure what the results would be for the sleep deprivation symptom.
WaC 2: Mental Health and Social Conditions
Rajib: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/08/the-link-between-mental-health-and-social-conditions
Reggie: Two things:
1. All health, not just mental health, is impacted by social factors. This isn't a surprise.
2. Depression, addiction and eating disorders are all considered mental illnesses. No doubt those have social determinants.
But we still can't ignore the other non-environmental or non-social factors. Dr. Ahsan isn't wrong to suggest that social factors play a role. But to start talking about individualism and capitalism as if these were primary drivers is rich.
As for these letters, it sounds like their writers work with disadvantaged individuals. Especially the volunteer, and the person who works with those who self-harm and often want to die.
Rajib: Why in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia dubai qatar has less suicide rate mass shooting and mental illness than japan and western countries its bcz people are staying away from God. Cz materialism can't buy rest or contentment of the heart might buy happiness..happiness and rest or contentment of the heart are two different things. If that was the case why marilyn monroe elvis presley was suffering from mental illness. Wasn't they rich? Weren't they beautiful? Weren't they wealthy??
Visit Malaysia u will see how people are sober and active less people are mentally ill..media won't tell this..Among the practising Muslims has less violent, less prostitution less gangs less mass shooting less mental illness no suicide. Here i am talking about those who are practicing Muslim not just by names. Even if you read the history. In history there were war but those wars to defend themselves. Cz enemy used to attack them just bcz they were preaching God.
Reggie:
Highest rates are in Middle Eastern countries. Also, is there a difference in mental illness rates between women and men among practicing Muslims? Islamic jihad was waged against people all over Asia (e.g. Hindus in India).
As for practicing Muslims being "less violent", I'm sure that practicing Buddhists, Christians and atheists -- not just by name alone -- would also be less violent. Crime rates in Japan are among the lowest in the world. But does that mean that crime doesn't exist? No. The fact is that Japan has a lot of hidden, unreported violent crime -- especially towards women. Any data that comes out of misogynistic, dictatorial countries like Saudi Arabia are dubious.
1 in 3 Malaysian have mental health problems. That is higher than the global 1 in 4 average.
Media doesn't have to tell you this: their government is. My friend, I would encourage you reflect on whether your opinions are based on objective fact or biased experience.
Rajib: Um not being opinionated..when someone talks based on facts that's not opinion..my friend dont trust all the online sources we r Living in a country where u pay taxes even you go to eat..lol..we r Living in a country where all house members work still mortgage..whereas in arab countries one people work and all family members Enjoy.
So financial distress and debt are one of the main reasons for mental illness. Look at Vancouver fentanyl problem..we are brainwashed such way that we don't like to talk about our problems so we can't raise voice..Ottawa protest is the proof of we r under dictatorship and there is no democracy..protest was peaceful even not a single meeting or negotiations were held with the protesters..look at the healthcare system now..here these political issues are related to mental health so i talked about it.so don't misunderstand that why i brought politics here..
Go and visit and don't trust on what media and online sources are saying
Reggie: Visits, as personal experiences, are anecdotal. For the above, I can reference scientific papers. Unless you're suggesting that even those are not credible. In which case, the sciences are useless.
I'm from Victoria, and I travel to Vancouver every year. I know what both East Hastings and White Rock are like. I have friends and family who work on the ground there. I'm not suggesting, and would never suggest, that the fentanyl crisis isn't real. Nor am I naive to think that the government isn't controlling the message. Every level of government, like every corporation, has a public relations team.
Also, the Ottawa protest proves nothing. The fact is that Justin Trudeau won an election last year. The healthcare system has been problematic for decades. I would also argue that financial distress would have been much worse 100+ years ago, when there was no social safety net.
There was no CERB during the Great Depression, or when people died during the two world wars. What would've been the state of mental health then? Arab countries, didn't they just go through an attempted Arab Spring? What happened with that momentum?
Now of course, I can talk to my Persian or Arab friends, or even my Chinese friends, and ask them how things are going. And of course, they have found ways to cope with things there. But for those Persian friends, are they male or female? Are they Kurdish?
For those Arab friends, were they from Morocco or Yemen? Would they be considered rich or poor? What is their middle class like?
I'm non-white, my family immigrated to Canada in the 70-80s. Relatively speaking, some things are good, some are bad. And yes, the media does distort the message. Financial situation does matter, it matters for EVERYTHING in life. In what instance does financial situation not matter?
Anyway, not trying to rant here. Also, I do think we might be thinking the same thing here, just might be coming across differently.
Achilles: Thank you Reggie for your efforts to use empirical evidence and reason towards some of the claims made. I appreciate the scientific papers that you find, as do many others in our group.
Being philosophical is appreciating evidence and not being dogmatically tied to any theistic approach
Mental health and wellbeing are factors of the mind and how one lives their lives. All humans have social and cognitive biases due to our evolutionary history. Our minds are not perfect nor do they reflect reality accurately.
I am sure Reggie can attest to kahneman and tversky's work on the availability and representative heuristic impacting investment decisions
The DSM is not culturally limited, these conditions affect us all almost equally. In some cultures that have more social support, conditions like schizophrenia are not as bad because the family takes care of the person with the condition
As for women's rights, that is an issue in some muslim countries and i feel it is very important for us to talk about that. I had an x-gf who was assaulted by her family because we dated. Its real and not cool that women are treated like second class citizens without access to education in certain areas. In these circumstances, there is a clear violation of human rights
Reggie: Appreciate the confidence 🙂 I would say though, for completeness, that there are other ways to gain insight into human nature.
WaC 3: Being Philosophical
Achilles: Yes, science is one method that we use as a means to make truthful claims about that which exists.
Not all expressions of human nature have this as a goal like your example of appreciating art. An empirical claim that can be tested, like the mental health issues ranked by country, can be tested outside of our perspective.
We make observations anecdotally and those give us the motivation to use the tool of science to double check.
Being Philosophical is not about being right. It's about working towards the truth via the empirical tools of science and our intellectual faculty of reason. There is something to be said of the 'way of being,' which is how we live. Culture dominates this discourse in some ways and is shielded with ethical relativism.
I feel that we can philosophically explore ways of being that are adjunct to science. These ways of being lead us to our successful scientific discoveries. You need a sense of where to look before you apply measurements. If you know the herding path of a dinosaur, you can dig in that area with more success than randomly.
Reggie: Philosophy is not always about empirical truth though. Or logic, especially when considering the philosophy of language or metalogic. Philosophy of art and aesthetics is can be analyzed empirically and with logic, but ultimately they are rooted in personal experience.
Achilles: This is why I brought up 'way of being.'
Reggie: Okay, so then you do think that being philosophical isn't just about working towards the truth? Maybe I misinterpreted it but you said, "there's something he said for 'way of being'" but that wasn't quite clear to me...?
Achilles: This is one facet. Linguistic truth- when words correspond to reality . But there is a different truth, which we would say mental illness is the opposite of. Any way of being that leads to mental illness was not correct. Taoism speaks of this truth, the way or the tao. What is it? What is being? I would say that it is contingent on several factors. One is that we are human. Another we could say is the cosmos.
A marker of deviation from the way is mental illness. This is not culturally relative but relative to a more predominant factor, human nature and the nature of the cosmos itself. Our existence is an end in itself. Just the fact that one exists is reason enough to continue existing. Through agency and volition, we create and follow our individual purpose that is coherent with humanity and the cosmos we grow within.
We can create a culture beyond the descriptive cultures that exist. A normative set of traditions which propagates the growth and autonomy of every individual. This will create a society where mental illness does not exist in the same way it does today. This is what my Phd thesis is on.
Once we understand being, once you as a person understands being, then you can begin to grow as an individual within the broader social context you are situated in that is independent of an economic role. Being part of the economy will eventually become part of the past once we have automated machines to do all of our laborious tasks.
Human flourishing will be the new way of life, assuming we survive beyond climate change, AI and any other cosmological threats.
You're already part of it. This group is the beginning. I am doing it first as an organization then writing the Phd once I've proved it. This is why I'm teaching the philosophy of CBT at the Wednesday meetings. Learning how to manage our thoughts as part of our emotional health is basically step one. Mindfulness and meditation is step two.
Read the organizational mandate for the group. Organizational Mandate | achillesjustice
It's like the beginning of the book. A bunch of other parts are embedded in the newsletters i've been writing.
Reggie: consider whether your thesis will involve primary research. It would likely be difficult (ie. costly) to get test/control groups. So probably some kind of survey data? Or a qualitative research study, that would only require a dozen people. The findings then would be part of what you would publish. I assume you'd want to run a study that would add to the body of literature, not just replicate a part of it.
Achilles: First having the entirety of the program completed. This means all philosophical a priori deductions proved. All empirical justifications to existing best practices in the treatment plans of all mental health disorders are simplified without loss of efficacy in a coherent, predictable manner as a normative practice.
All training programs completed for each skill like emotional intelligence, meditation, etc. Bridging existing cultural paradigms to the normative model. Demonstration of why the normative model is necessarily a better way of life while preserving individuality, autonomy and the anesthetic element of existing cultural practices without compromising wellbeing. Establishing the organization as an economic entity. Then identifying what is being measured and how to measure it via double blind, controlled studies that are cross culturally replicated.
Reggie: So you're going to all those things first before setting up the studies? maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think you can provide empirical justification without studies...or maybe you mean:
1. setup the program, i.e. all the things you mentioned -- training programs, normative models, demonstration
2. test it.
program = organization. So this group then is really a 'pilot' program, or 'proof of concept.'
Achilles: Yah this is like the 3rd rendition. The pilot was in 2012-17 where I discovered a 'philosophy group' could help people with mental health issues. I have a tedx talk on it. I've also done a housing program for 9 years and now this again
Yah, the studies I will do once I have been running the program and make some observations first and tweak it until I know it works, then I will test it via a publication. I may as well get out all the kinks before I publish anything.
WaC 4: Website Legitimacy
Sathvik: How do you know if a website is legit? Cuz I’ve looked up a lot of websites for a variety of reasons and I can’t distinguish if it’s professional or a scam.
Achilles: Depends on which kind of website. If it's for purchasing or informational integrity there is a difference. Using a credit card for purchases can protect you against fraud. Information needs to be justified and can be cross referenced
Reggie: So for me, I typically depend on the following:
A) First, I check that the story shows up in unbiased news providers with a strong unbiased track record (e.g. BBC, Al Jazeera)
B) If from a typically biased outlet, I check what another media source from the opposite end says. So for example, if it shows up on Fox, what does CNN say about it?
C) If it's an Opinion piece, throw it out lol
D) If it's based on unnamed "sources", be skeptical
E) Try to find the actual source interview, study etc and check whether the news article provided the appropriate context. For example, the infamous Trump statement on Mexico when he came down the escalator. What irritated me to no end was that the media cut out the part where he said:
And he pointed to the Latinos in the crowd. The inappropriateness of those comments notwithstanding, the media shouldn't be cutting straight to "They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime..." Context is important.
F) If you find a scientific study, check to see if it is peer reviewed. If it's not, and just something on Researchgate or the like, be skeptical.
G) Business news tends to be the least biased of the private media outlets. Wall St Journal, Bloomberg, The Economist. That's because money never sleeps and doesn't lie -- follow the money.
From a Canadian perspective, the Report on Business from the Globe & Mail is the most reliable. Financial Post is okay factually but their writing is mediocre and their 'analyses' are garbage. Always cross check CBC and the Toronto Sun. lol
Basic rule of thumb: search up the same story or issue and just compare them all to each other -- the headlines, the phrasing and adjectives, who may have been interviewed, key sources. And always try to find the original source (e.g. video clip, transcript, scientific study). Eventually, you'll start to notice all the biases.
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